Does the QB make the WR, or vice versa?

I have often wondered what came first, the chicken or the egg? Well, perhaps not that but that type of question in the football format. What came first, the good receiver, or the good QB?

I see points to both side of the argument. If I had to pick, I think having a good QB will make the receivers better. Case in point, Oakland. They have arguably one of the best in the game, and their QB stinks (among other things).

Name one top 10 QB who doesn't have a good receiver? Don't name Brady, he single handily develops good receivers on a yearly basis. He doesn't have any household names now, but give him a year or two. You will know Gabriel's and others names. Does the difference in WR talent based more on how good the offense is and QB rather than how much talent the WR has?

I'd say a good QB helps his receivers more, but it's obviously a symbiotic relationship...they have to help and complement each other. In fact, the most important thing probably isn't the QB or the receiver, but the bond that exists between them....the chemistry.

I recently heard a radio interview with former NFL receiver Curtis Conway. Conway had a long, respectable career (1993-2005), but for all his years in the league, he was never an A-list receiver...maybe not even a B-list guy, and he acknowledged this. In his opinion, the biggest thing that really held him back in his career was that, in his entire NFL career, Conway never once worked with the same QB two years in a row. Incredible, huh? He spent his entire career with teams in transition....the bad Bears teams of the '90's, the awful Chargers teams of 2000-2002, the Jets in '03, and the Niners in '04. And every single year of his career, he had to work with a different QB, and build from scratch whatever chemistry they could develop.

As a result, he was never able to develop any real chemistry with a QB....that almost telepathic connection where each knows exactly what the other guy is gonna do just by glancing at him. This chemistry isn't formed by weeks or months of practices, but by years of working together. And it's fair to say that, once developed, this chemistry plays a big a part in the team's success as either of individual players.

If you think about it, virtually every great QB in the history of the game has had a WR with whom he is directly associated, and vice-versa. They may not both be hall-of-famers, but the connection is undeniable and permanent. Montana/Rice....Marino/Duper....Manning/Harrison....Bradshaw/Swann....Staubach/Hill.....the list goes on. In fact, one is rather hard-pressed to think of a great QB that didn't have a well-known right hand man.

Exactly Nine. All this talk about getting Vince a "real" WR, I think is absurd. If Vince was a good QB, the WRs would naturally be there. It is a symbiotic relationship. In short, I think while Vince's receivers are not exceptional, they are adequate, and his development is hinged largely in part due to his own abilities and skills and not of those WRs he has around him.

So please stop with all of the draft Calvin Johnson talk. It is rubbish. This team needs so much more than another ruddy WR.

Ask yourself one question. If you were starting a Franchise and you could either have the best QB in the game or the best WR....who would you take?

Not to take anything away from the great WR's...and there are a good chunk of them....but a lot of the 'good' wr's are products of their QB's.

If you look at some historical examples....Warren Moon several WR's into the Pro Bowl and Slaughter was the ONLY one to get there before becoming an Oiler. When his 'Pro Bowl' WR's went to other teams, they didn't come close to Pro Bowl level anymore. So who made who?

The GREAT WR's stay great no matter who's throwing them the ball. If they fade...then it was the QB. Similarly, if a QB puts up huge numbers and his top WR leaves and all of a sudden, he can't throw...then either his new WR is terrible or his WR made him a much better player.

Of course, chemistry is an under-rated aspect of QB-WR play, but it isn't necessary to have years of practice together to be supremely successful. How many years did Moss practice with Culpepper before his dominant rookie season? Is Moss still a dominant WR?

How many years did it take Jerry Rice to have 'chemistry' with Montana?

What about Duper/Clayton with Marino? What did Duper or Clayton ever do without Marino? If you have to look it up...don't bother.

Conway simply was not a good WR and he moved around a lot because a lot of teams took a chance on him expecting more than they got. Chemistry would have helped HIM, but clearly those teams didn't think him worthy of staying around long enough to develop it.

Of course, this also goes beyond just the relationship between QB and WR because you have to take into account the surrounding talent and scheme. However, ONLY some of the greatest QB's can overcome talent deficiencies....WR's can't.

Gut

Moss pulled in some lousy Culpepper throws....Moss made Culpepper. But Moss can't help ANY rayduh QB.

OTOH, Bennett can't seem to do jack without Volek.

Moss pulled in some lousy Culpepper throws....Moss made Culpepper. But Moss can't help ANY rayduh QB.

OTOH, Bennett can't seem to do jack without Volek.


True, Volek could actually throw the ball with accuracy. Amazing how much that helps. We should just dump Bennett, he never gets open or scores. Oh wait, he got our only TD catch last week, let's rethink that.

bennett= crap.

as for that ONE great year he had, he had one 100 yard receiving game against a top half pass defense. that defense would be the bears at 15.

his other 100+ receiving games were against san diego(31st) indy(28th) kansas city(32) and oakland(30). he had over half of his yards in four games against the worst pass defenses in the league.

so drew bennett is good enough to beat up on some of the worst defense's in the league. we need someone who can beat up on the best.

Exactly Nine. All this talk about getting Vince a "real" WR, I think is absurd. If Vince was a good QB, the WRs would naturally be there. It is a symbiotic relationship. In short, I think while Vince's receivers are not exceptional, they are adequate, and his development is hinged largely in part due to his own abilities and skills and not of those WRs he has around him.

So please stop with all of the draft Calvin Johnson talk. It is rubbish. This team needs so much more than another ruddy WR.

Amen dude :thumb:

bennett= crap.


Bennett=crap...LMAO at that statement. That is one of your dumbest comments yet :))

well he obviously isnt litterally crap :)

Bennett=crap...LMAO at that statement. That is one of your dumbest comments yet :))

Bennett IS crap. He has been for a couple season now. He pulls up on balls. Lets balls in the endzone go right threw his hands. This season he is in all time form with pulling up on balls to avoid a hit. The money this guys makes he need to put himself on the line for his rookie QB. The clutch drops on 3rd downs and in the endzone have plagued him his entire career. I do not see any way the Titans renew a contract with Bennett next season, especially with his ho-hmm attitude.

Non of our WR demand a double and teams know it. A good WR adds holes as the secondary shift to protect the obvious weapon. This would give single or even LB coverage to some of our TEs or #2 or #3 WRs so they can make plays. That is hurting Vince. Plus people on here act like Vince should be in pro-bowl form right now. He is a rookie and he was in the thick of a couple QB controversies right at the get go.

Great post.

Most of the following is aimed more at the thread as a whole rather than following up on your post Gut.

You covered it but didn't actually go as far as to say that Rice was on his game wherever he played & whoever threw to him.

Again although you covered it you didn't fully elaborate on considering the actual Offence.

In our case regardless of whether you are question Chow's play calling or not the key is Vince. Prior to the Jags game Vy hadn't been asked to throw a lot & averaged less than a hundred yards per game. With receptions being spread around between WR's,TE's & RB's no one is going to shine as a receiver on our offence.

He's protected the ball well before the Jags game & even though since he's been our starter at least 2 perfect bombs were dropped,many of his throws have been off target or behind receivers.

Did Randy Moss sign with the Raiders to have Walters throwing to him? No way. He sign up to what he thought was going to be Gannon throwing laser's for 4500yds a year. IMO Moss is still an elite receiver if Tom Walsh isn't handing out the room keys.

Would I love to have Johnson or Ginn sure but I don't think it would move VY any further along than our current group. What he needs is elite linemen.

Bennett IS crap. He has been for a couple season now. He pulls up on balls. Lets balls in the endzone go right threw his hands. This season he is in all time form with pulling up on balls to avoid a hit. The money this guys makes he need to put himself on the line for his rookie QB. The clutch drops on 3rd downs and in the endzone have plagued him his entire career. I do not see any way the Titans renew a contract with Bennett next season, especially with his ho-hmm attitude.

Non of our WR demand a double and teams know it. A good WR adds holes as the secondary shift to protect the obvious weapon. This would give single or even LB coverage to some of our TEs or #2 or #3 WRs so they can make plays. That is hurting Vince. Plus people on here act like Vince should be in pro-bowl form right now. He is a rookie and he was in the thick of a couple QB controversies right at the get go.

I disagree with you but no biggie to me

Some people on here had Young in the HOF before he played his first game. You may or may not have been one of them.

Young has to improve or he will be nothing more than an avg/decent QB.

well he obviously isnt litterally crap :)

ok so that smell isn't him, just the whole team...right :ha:

Would I love to have Johnson or Ginn sure but I don't think it would move VY any further along than our current group. What he needs is elite linemen.

But even elite lineman are not taken in the first round plus we have big FA money to spend in the off season. Imagine a White, Young, Johnson core on O for 5 or six seasons. That sounds pretty good in my book.

I don't think I need to mention how the greatest WR in NFL history was good no matter who was throwing him the ball.

As I've said in other posts, the Titans should revert back to more of the offensive style they had with Eddie in his prime and a young McNair...POUND the rock and let VY move the chains with his feet or short 3rd down plays.

Of course, to do that you need a stout D, not the swiss cheese defense we're playing now. If you're down 20-0 at halftime, you can't pound the rock if you want to win. Pounding the rock (successfully) will lead to teams loading up against us with 8 man fronts. I very much like my scoring chances with playaction (max protect) and Moss one on one to the outside with no safety help and a single CB between him and the endzone.

The other concept would be to feature a 3 WR set as our base look. Either teams went to nickel D and had to let their nickel back try and tackle Henry and LW or force the nickel to READ like a LB AND have contain against VY. This gives us a run advantage. If teams go to a 4-3 D to stop the run, we can go hurry up to keep that LB on the field and take advantage of the LB v WR mismatch and force zone coverage.

The key for VY is not let OUR coaching staff pick and choose when he throws, not the score. We will get better production out of VY this year when we can run OUR offense the way we want. When we get behind and VY has to throw a lot, he'll have more bad days.

Moss went to Oakland because they were willing to take him bad boy attitude and still pay him top dollar. Moss would help Vince a lot though I wouldn't be chucking the ball to Moss a lot...but you create a bad mismatch for any D. Do you dare put your CB on an island by himself against Moss?

On the other hand, I'd rather have Steve Hutchinson than Randy Moss. We need a serious upgrade on the OL.

Gut

Great post.

Most of the following is aimed more at the thread as a whole rather than following up on your post Gut.

You covered it but didn't actually go as far as to say that Rice was on his game wherever he played & whoever threw to him.

Again although you covered it you didn't fully elaborate on considering the actual Offence.

In our case regardless of whether you are question Chow's play calling or not the key is Vince. Prior to the Jags game Vy hadn't been asked to throw a lot & averaged less than a hundred yards per game. With receptions being spread around between WR's,TE's & RB's no one is going to shine as a receiver on our offence.

He's protected the ball well before the Jags game & even though since he's been our starter at least 2 perfect bombs were dropped,many of his throws have been off target or behind receivers.

Did Randy Moss sign with the Raiders to have Walters throwing to him? No way. He sign up to what he thought was going to be Gannon throwing laser's for 4500yds a year. IMO Moss is still an elite receiver if Tom Walsh isn't handing out the room keys.

Would I love to have Johnson or Ginn sure but I don't think it would move VY any further along than our current group. What he needs is elite linemen.

I disagree with you but no biggie to me

Some people on here had Young in the HOF before he played his first game. You may or may not have been one of them.

Young has to improve or he will be nothing more than an avg/decent QB.

I did not even want Young starting this season but that opinion was formed prior to the Collins debacle. After which I could not wait to see him or even a burning dumpster in the back field other then collins.

Look at some of the best QBs to play. Most started terrible. We are rebuilding it is going to happen.

My deal with Bennett is when we are in a playoff hunt he plays well. Gets those hard catches pulls in the long balls. When we are not playing well it is like he is Moss on a play that is not going to him. I don't understand his play in a contract year.

[QUOTE=BlazingArrow#9]But even elite lineman are not taken in the first round...QUOTE]

Yes they are...but if we're talking OG and OC, we're looking at end of the first early second.

Since it looks like we'll have another top 5 pick...we should look at it this way...

Positions worth a top 5 pick that we need...

PASS RUSHER

I WOULD consider Calvin Johnson, but only after looking at his measureables. Also, recent history has shown a lot of these WR's are not turning into dominant WR's in the NFL. That should be a warning.

Short of a great pass rusher being available, I would NOT take a CB and probably not a WR. I don't see a RB worthy of that right now.

That means we could trade down into say top 10 and get one of these...
CB, DT, S, RT, RB, WR, DE while netting at least another 3rd rnd pick.

If we want to really rebuild the OL, we could grab a dominant RT here and then get the best OG in the draft with our second rnd pick. I would then trade back up into round 2 to get a CB, pass rushing DE, RB or OC.

We need to start adding quality, not quantity from the draft. In addition, we need to spend our FA money very wisely.

Dwight Freeney and Nate Clements would look good in Titans uni's. Gregg Williams as DC would look even better!!!

Gut

But even elite lineman are not taken in the first round plus we have big FA money to spend in the off season. Imagine a White, Young, Johnson core on O for 5 or six seasons. That sounds pretty good in my book.

Well when you put it like that :yes: :yes:

Well when you put it like that :yes: :yes:
the triplets.

Dwight Freeney and Nate Clements would look good in Titans uni's. Gregg Williams as DC would look even better!!!

Freeney would be nice but he is another pass rusher. It was mentioned on another thread but KVB has this same type of problem. Great against the pass but the speed rush causes him to over play run plays.

In Madden J Peppers was available on FA in 2007. Let me tell you he has added leaps and bounds to my defensive line.

Freeny has one half sack this year. Moss dropped 3 passes on MNF. I never cease to be amazed how people evaluate talent on this board.

We need to start adding quality, not quantity from the draft. In addition, we need to spend our FA money very wisely.
That is exactly what I've been saying, the amount of effing 4th rounders we've had and used to add depth, if we want to be a good football team we need good players, and a better DC but there you go...

A lot of guys have been saying that there aren't any stand out players coming up in F.A, and that it would be better to go for an O-Liner with our 2nd pick, right now, I'm not so sure but then again, its only week 10, we'll have to see what we do towards the end of the season in regards to our O-Line...

Exactly Nine. All this talk about getting Vince a "real" WR, I think is absurd. If Vince was a good QB, the WRs would naturally be there. It is a symbiotic relationship. In short, I think while Vince's receivers are not exceptional, they are adequate, and his development is hinged largely in part due to his own abilities and skills and not of those WRs he has around him.

So please stop with all of the draft Calvin Johnson talk. It is rubbish. This team needs so much more than another ruddy WR.

Well if it's a symbiotic relationship, then a great WR will help. No doubt this team needs a lot of help at various positions, but how does that allow you to totally dismiss picking the best college WR? I doubt Vince will be a passer like Payton, Brady, Montana, etc. He's the guy that could benifit most from a true #1 go to guy.

my two cents................the truly great ones.............Like Brady, Elway and Marino made their WR's.............hate to say this but I'd also put Theisman in this group..................I hate him but he made his WR look all world for a long time.............and he made several guys look that good...............some QB's got lucky and had studs..........like Bradshaw, Montana, Manning....................for most cases I think a good to very good QB need at least one WR and a decent run game.....................Brady to me is the best QB ever because he has made it with the worst group of WR through his three SB................The other mutli run SB winning teams all had stud WR and RB's...............Brady had neither, but i think his team defense was among the best for 5 straight yrs.................Count me as very impressed by Tom..............but I honestly think Tom's winning days are over..................................The Pats D has lost a ton and the key guys are no longer elite....................

Exactly Nine. All this talk about getting Vince a "real" WR, I think is absurd. If Vince was a good QB, the WRs would naturally be there.

So please stop with all of the draft Calvin Johnson talk. It is rubbish. This team needs so much more than another ruddy WR.

I've got just five words for you if you think that Vince (or any other QB) doesn't need a star WR.

Peyton Manning to Marvin Harrison.

i got one for you then..............Dilfer to Ismail................2000 SB................you don't need one if you have other pieces.....................football is a team sport................the best team wins and there are many examples of how great teams are assembled................right now the Titans have got their LT RT and QB and future RB.................now they need a WR and a D.................

Freeny has one half sack this year. Moss dropped 3 passes on MNF. I never cease to be amazed how people evaluate talent on this board.

gee gutsy call, your evaluation of talent is coming from one game and half a season. Suddenly that makes Moss - a WR who was on track to break Jerry Rice receiving record and Freeney who has had 10+ sacks for the past 3 or 4 years untalented?

might wanna rethink the way you evaluate talent.

I've got just five words for you if you think that Vince (or any other QB) doesn't need a star WR.

Peyton Manning to Marvin Harrison.


playing Devils adovacte

did Manning make Harrison or did Harrison make Manning :stars:

gee gutsy call, your evaluation of talent is coming from one game and half a season. Suddenly that makes Moss - a WR who was on track to break Jerry Rice receiving record and Freeney who has had 10+ sacks for the past 3 or 4 years untalented?

might wanna rethink the way you evaluate talent.

LT only had 36 yards vs pitt a few games back. I hope our FO does not pick him up off of waivers. He is garbage! :rolleyes:

playing Devils adovacte

did Manning make Harrison or did Harrison make Manning :stars:

yes

yes


taking the easy way out eh :ha:

Freeney would be nice but he is another pass rusher. It was mentioned on another thread but KVB has this same type of problem. Great against the pass but the speed rush causes him to over play run plays.

In Madden J Peppers was available on FA in 2007. Let me tell you he has added leaps and bounds to my defensive line.

TJ's opnion is that KVB is a good pass rusher but not that good against the run. My eyes and the stats tell us otherwise. Guys who are dominant pass rushers but can't play the run don't get a lot of tackles. KVB is 5th among NFL DL in tackles.

But KVB is not a pure pass rusher and we need one! Dwight Freeney is no worse than top 5 in that category. He'd be hard to get and cost a lot, but he's probably worth it to build the D into a dominant force we'll need for VY's early years.

I would actually prefer Julius Peppers, but there is zero possibility of him being available. He IS the cornerstone of the Panthers D and arguably the best DE (both against the pass and run) in the game. He is a dream...unless you're playing Madden!

Gut

True he does get allot of tackles. Next time you see a game though watch #93. It is pretty obvious some times. He will end up past the QB in some cases when the guy on him plays it right.

Freeny has one half sack this year. Moss dropped 3 passes on MNF. I never cease to be amazed how people evaluate talent on this board.

How many QB pressures does Freeney have? How many DE's have more sacks than Freeney over the last 5 years? To clarify, Freeney has 51 sacks in 4 and a half seasons. In my book that's excellent production! Even if you can find me someone with more sacks...are they available in free agency or via trade? (BTW, Julius Peppers has 48.5 sacks over the same time period and will NOT be available).

And Moss has been a dominant WR his whole career...even his down years are better than anyone we've had since Mason AND he scores TD's and makes big plays. And that's with a Raiders offense that is totally out of sync. I think it could work quite well here. Plus, who else would take a suspension waiting to happen in Pacman and would have a talented player we'd want who also could benefit from a change of scenery?

Gut

playing Devils adovacte

did Manning make Harrison or did Harrison make Manning :stars:
i'll bite.

harrison was talented enough to be taken in the first round, however with jeff george as his qb he never had 1000 yard season. in manning's second year he went from about 750 yards to 1400.

but you could also say that harrison went by the three season rule that young WRs tend to go through. he was a steady 850 yard WR his first two years. then in his third year he had 776 yards in in 12 games compared to the previous two seasons when he played all 16.

so, who the hell knows? but you have to say there is something to the way those guys communicate on and off the field. i think that has more to do with things than who makes who better.

playing Devils adovacte

did Manning make Harrison or did Harrison make Manning :stars:
neither made each other, both were great in my opinion, but i do think that manning made reggie wayne

TJ's opnion is that KVB is a good pass rusher but not that good against the run. My eyes and the stats tell us otherwise. Guys who are dominant pass rushers but can't play the run don't get a lot of tackles. KVB is 5th among NFL DL in tackles.
I didn't mean to make it sound that KVB is not doing his part. The fact is, the DL, as a whole, don't get enough tackles, IMO.

Let's put this in context. He is fifth on the Titans in tackles averaging 4.75 per game, which, as you can expect, is quite a bit less than the LBs and S.

Just like his sack numbers, his tackles appear to come against the weaker OL teams. Last week, he had two tackles when the Jags had 69 runs. Looking at other top teams, he had three tackles against the Chargers who had 37 carries. He had four against the Cowboys who had 41 rushes.

A great QB can elevate the game of an avg. WR more than a great WR can elevate the game of an avg. QB. I don't think their is any question that Moss helped Culpepper out a tremendous amount.

VY is never going to be the type of QB that beats you with his quick read and pin point accuracy. That is why I think we need to get him a Moss type receiver and CJ is the closest thing in this draft. I think CJ's draft positon will be determined by his 40 yd time. If he runs sub 4.5 he goes top 5 if he runs slower then he falls a little.

I also believe that it isn't a coincidence that often times the great QB/WR combos are drafted fairley close together so that their games can mature at the same rate. Another reason to take CJ if the chance presents itself.

I totally agree that the way that VY is going to be the most effective is when we can establish a strong running game and have a stellar defense.

Personally I don't think that their is a defensive guy that is worth a top 5 pick this yr. I've watched Gaines and am not convinced he is all that.

The way we spend our FA dollars will help dictate the draft.

I would love to be able to trade down to get another 2nd rnd pick because on the defensive side of the ball a good MLB and a good safety will be available in the 2nd rnd.

I would give serious consideration to Blalock in the first if we end up picking out of the top 10. The guy can play both G and RT. He also is experienced at blocking for the read option which will continue to be a play we use.

True, Volek could actually throw the ball with accuracy. Amazing how much that helps. We should just dump Bennett, he never gets open or scores. Oh wait, he got our only TD catch last week, let's rethink that.


I think you've misunderstood my evaluation of Bennett's talent.

Bennett and Volek had a chemistry going. Bennett and VY do not. True, Bennett caught a TD..but Bennett has also dropped many, and VY has thrown some serious frozen turkeys.

I am a Bennett fan, and as a fan, I can reasonably state that he is inconsistent. He can be either really great or terribly embarrassing, and you never know which one you're gonna get.

gee gutsy call, your evaluation of talent is coming from one game and half a season. Suddenly that makes Moss - a WR who was on track to break Jerry Rice receiving record and Freeney who has had 10+ sacks for the past 3 or 4 years untalented?

might wanna rethink the way you evaluate talent.


Just saying these guys aren't what they used to be, and we would have to give a pretty high price for them. Heck, we spent money for Givens and can't even get him on the field. I can see money for a LB like Thornton, they are few and far between, but DE's can be developed these days. There are so many good ones coming out of college now I just think it would be silly to spend the money for Freeny. Moss may still have it, but playing on a lousy team has probably caused him to lose interest. You also have to wonder who really wants to come to this organization after two years of losing, and another one on the horizon. We are pathetic to the point I bet we are being listed as one of those "no trade to" teams. My how quickly things have changed.

DE are easy to develop.

Have you heard of

LaBoy
Odom
Schobel

They both make each other. Would Peyton Manning look as good with Roydell Williams, courtney Roby and Drew Bennet. No, he would not. would Vince Young look better with Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, and Brandon Stokeley. Vince would look a world better.
A great QB makes a average WR look good. A great WR makes an average QB look good. A great QB and a great WR look amazing. A average QB and an average WR look, well, average.
The system is also accountable. Systems like Mike Martz's and the system New England uses are very friendly to the QB and to the WR

Just saying these guys aren't what they used to be, and we would have to give a pretty high price for them. Heck, we spent money for Givens and can't even get him on the field. I can see money for a LB like Thornton, they are few and far between, but DE's can be developed these days. There are so many good ones coming out of college now I just think it would be silly to spend the money for Freeny. Moss may still have it, but playing on a lousy team has probably caused him to lose interest. You also have to wonder who really wants to come to this organization after two years of losing, and another one on the horizon. We are pathetic to the point I bet we are being listed as one of those "no trade to" teams. My how quickly things have changed.

So you think Freeney...in his prime...has LOST IT?!?!? If DE's are so easy to develop, how can he have lost it?

How many DE's in this league have avg'd 10+ sacks per year for the last 5 years? Then we'll see how 'easy' it is to develop a good one. Plus, if you're gonna rebuild faster, you're gonna need to spend some money. Is there an OL as good as Freeney available in a trade or free agency? Probably not. Plus, who do you see in the college ranks that you think are can't miss dominant pass rushers?

And how many dominant pass rushers (avg 10 sacks a year for 5 or more years) came outside of the first rnd? How many have come outside of the top 15 players?

Compare that to the number of first and second rnd DE's who DON'T avg 10 sacks a year.

Now tell me how easy it is...

Considering Moss' age, drooping production, salary, and his lazy attitude....a straight up swap for Pacman sounds about right.....IF we want Moss.

And this is not baseball where you have the perennial haves and the have nots. Bad teams can become good teams in as little as 2 years so players don't really make no trade clauses with inclusive teams and exclusive teams.

Gut

if systems are so QB friendly, why don't all teams use them?

DE are easy to develop.

Have you heard of

LaBoy
Odom
Schobel

You get what you pay for. If it is true that Fisher wanted a defensive player instead of Young, Mario might be playing DE right now for us. Keep in mind right now that Odom and AH are still out. We are also not exactly loaded at the LB position, and that includes Sirmon AND Bulluck.

There's no scenario in which we would get mario. The texans took him, there wasn't any chance. The saints probably would have taken him if they didn't. Surely you aren't suggesting we would have traded up? No way.

We are also not exactly loaded at the LB position, and that includes Sirmon AND Bulluck.
i just dont see how you can say thornton is playing better than bulluck.

thornton has more trouble than bulluck when it comes to getting off of blocks, bulluck is faster and more athletic.

even if you look at their stats their numbers are pretty much identical, aside from tackles. bullcuk has about 19 more tackles, while thornton has one more pass breakup and bulluck has one more sack.

There's no scenario in which we would get mario. The texans took him, there wasn't any chance. The saints probably would have taken him if they didn't. Surely you aren't suggesting we would have traded up? No way.


I am sure Fisher voiced this before the draft. I think the Texans taking Mario surprised everyone. Even if the Texans had taken Bush, I don't believe the Saints would have taken Mario, so he might have still been there. I am saying overall Fisher would have been OK with either Volek or McNair, and wanted to beef up the defense, which certainly could use it. Now we not only have a problematic defense, but a project in a rookie QB, which isn't helping either. We have problems on both sides of the ball.