How about KC v VY for starter?

Well...

You clearly DO want to bash Young since you knock him for an INT that wasn't his fault but you don't acknowledge the BAD INT Collins threw. And FYI, no one is asking you to believe that VY is the next great QB. No one in this thread has even hinted about VY being great. I am merely pointing out when people are saying negative things about him which aren't true.

If you a fair and unbiased poster, you would acknowledge that Collins threw a bad INT whereas VY's INT in the Bills game can't be blamed on him. Your bashing Young for an INT that wasn't his fault and for being curiously quiet about Collins' bad throw leaves the impression that you're bashing Young.

So can you be clear? Did Hawkins run the correct route or not? If he ran the correct route, then Dinger doesn't know how to design a play. Are you claiming this or are you admitting he ran the wrong route? And if Hawkins didn't take it upon himself to 'lie' to the media to protect Young...are you saying that Fisher forced him to lie to the media? It's a nice conspiracy theory if you don't like Young...but it starts with a basic flaw. The route run is not a route combination used in the NFL, nor college, nor high school. What he said he was supposed to do makes sense and would have drastically changed the outcome of the play. I'm glad you find reality entertaining

So now you're saying what VY should have done...against a blitz with a TE one on one against a DE in coverage with a 1/3 of the field cleared out...is to take a sack? LOL! Then you'd be talking about how he couldn't pickup the blitz or make a decision! Let's try this...besides throwing the ball away or taking a sack...who should he have thrown the ball to and what type of pass? Why am I suggesting VY did the right thing? Simple.

You are the QB...you have 2 WR's on either side running GO routes. You have a slot WR to your right running a seam route. You have a TE in a tight slot to your left. They zone blitz you with a lot of pressure coming from your right...the outside CB's are playing off and a S drops to the deep middle. The CB's are over top your guys...they have near ideal coverage for the routes being run and neither guy is beating his man. Your seam route is covered. Your TE wheeling out can only be covered by the dropping off DE. Where would you throw the ball? Who has the best matchup?

Gut

 

Eddy...

Have you noticed you change the jist of your argument frequently? First Young stinks because he's looking bad in pre-season and he hasn't shown you anything. When he does well, it's meanless...when he doesn't, it's meaningful? This is a classic case of not being objective. And that's not even counting how you look at Collins. And now, the only way you would consider Young good enough to start (or perhaps just worthy of a roster spot) is if YOU see Franchise QB written on him. That will never happen while you focus on the negative and ignore the positives.

Let's see, Collins gets a pass because you've seen him do well but Young gets bashed because he hasn't torn it up. So Collins doesn't meet your expectations and gets a pass but Young doesn't exceed your expectation so he stinks? That's fair...lol

Playing more has nothing to do with QB rating.

And the year before that Collins was...and Collins career numbers show his lack of consistency at being a guy who takes care of the ball. I'm not saying Collins can't break that trend...and I sure hope he does...but he's far from a guarantee that he will since he hasn't been able to do it in 15 years.

True, but he had 19 TD's vs 16 turnovers his first season? I mean, rushing TD's and fumbles count, right?

I went by what you said. If that's not what you meant, then perhaps you should say what you mean rather than make broader negative statements you can't back up. And you wonder why people think you're bashing VY...

You claimed Collins gave us more offense. VY had more yards AND has 12 TD's in '07 and 19 TD's in '06. Collins gave us 12 TD's. How is that MORE?

Because below 80 is below avg. You can keep saying he had no INTs and we still won or he threw a pick and we still won or Collins did whatever and we still won. That doesn't change that he had BELOW avg performance in those games. And if you're happy with a QB rating of 77 (as you state in one game)...we simply have different standards of what good QB play is.

I think you think I'm here to bash Collins, but I'm not. Collins played very well in that game until the end. But he played more than well enough for us to win and we should have won. The turnovers killed us as well as our own players making stupid mistakes (penalties) and Schwartz not knowing how to defend a 3rd and long. Of course CJ getting hurt really hampered the offense too...but I digress.

I've never heard of a 7yd pass being referred to as a strike DOWN THE FIELD. And FYI, there IS a stat for this. Collins avg'd 6.4 per pass attempt last year. VY in comparison avg'd 6.7 in '07. I know your perception is that every pass VY throws is 3 yds, but that's not the reality.

How could YOU see this? What year did you know he was going to be good? What year did he look/play like a superstar?

And he never got worse? Plenty of times. In the middle of his career he had 2 seasons with more than 20 turnovers.

So again, did McNair's career justify him being taken 3rd overall? Maybe it's me, but I'm unaware of any QB's I'd call a superstar that throws less than 20 TD passes. And generally, when talking about a superstar, I'd expect either 30+ TD passes or mid 20's TD's with an excellent TD:INT ratio (at least 2:1). What's your definition of a superstar? Or is this again one of those...when you see it written on him but you can't quantify it?

So McNair was great because he won games? Has VY not won games for this team? And McNair had plenty of help with a Pro Bowl TE and RB. In fact, for most of McNair's career the offense was built around EG and the year we went to the Super Bowl, our D was awesome.

It's funny, you talk about stats when you want to bash someone with them, but they don't count when you don't like them.

I'd agree that Cutler has passed Young and every other young QB in the league...but we'll see how he does in a different offense without a Pro Bowl WR, in a different division, and with more pressure. Matt Ryan had one good year (so did VY his first year...it's no guarantee of anything). Trent Edwards is far from proven and same of Russell.

I think VY should be given an opportunity to make this team as he has been given and will sink or swim on this opportunity. However, it should be based on what HE does, no a WR running the wrong route or stuff like that. At the same time, I think Collins should be given the opportunity to prove that last year wasn't a fluke or a peak before an off-year.

Considering where both guys have come from...neither guy gets a free ride from me. You want a roster spot, earn it. You want a starting spot, earn it. That's where I'm coming from.

Gut

 

Psychop...

Yes, a guy in the league for 15 years should be able to pickup at least a workable portion of the offense if not all of it in 2 weeks. The concepts for most Pro offenses are similar. Kind of like climbing a Mountain. One style of climbing will go one way because it emphasizes a certain climbing style...but a Mountain Climber knows how to climb. Collins might need a wristband to know the terminology used, but he can more than know the plays they will run in a game. And the FACT that he consistently threw 2 INT's a game for 3 weeks can hardly be blamed on not knowing the offense. I don't expect his timing to be perfect with the WR's, but we didn't see that timing cause any of the INT's I could remember.

You suggested that I cherry picked other stats and said I should compare the latter portion of the season as Collins (and Young) would have better experience with the offense and it'd show a greater disparity in their stats. I don't know how looking at the last 6 games of the season doesn't count as doing just that. But ok...

Good paragraph! I completely understand!

Gut