Greetings...

Discussion in 'Tennessee Titans and NFL Talk' started by Gut, Apr 28, 2008.

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  1. I'm not all that concerned with where other teams had them ranked. There's no way to know. All we know is that no team drafted a WR in the first round. Not a single one. Mike Mayock didn't give any of them a 1st round grade either. It was simply a weak crop of WRs, at least at the top.

    Of course not, but they know a lot more than the average fan does.

    Yes. I never said they were always right. Just that they are much better and far more informed than Joe Blow. Even the best drafting team picks busts. It's all a crapshoot. But the pro scouts know far more about scouting than any normal fan.
     
  2. Completely different scenario. 2 of the top 3 teams were not looking at best player available. Dorsey didn't fit Miami's D. St Louis decided Long was slightly better. And Atlanta decided they needed a franchise QB to much to pass him up. It's really as simple as that. It has nothing to do with us picking Johnson.

    Prove it. You don't know that, you are just saying that because it's what YOU thought.

    You don't know because you don't spend all your time scouting these guys. And you also don't know because you may have been involved with high school football but that doesn't mean you know more than a guy who has spent his career around college and pro players. Simple as that.

    And feel free to compare yourself to other people on the board. I'm merely comparing you (and all the rest of us armchair scouts) to the pro scouts out there who do this for a living.

    Everyone is allowed to have an opinion. But just because we have one doesn't mean we know more than the professionals. More often than not, they know better than we do.

    Simple, I've read scouting reports and I've heard what the Titans staff said about him after the draft. It's not that hard to tell.

    He won't get there this year. But he can with a full season in an NFL weight room.

    Mason was drafted as a WR, just like Hawkins and any other 4th round WR picked in the draft. And he wasn't picked because he's like our other WRs, he was picked because he was the best player on our board (or possibly just the best WR left and they decided they needed to pick one). And like I said, salary means nothing in this case.

    That's a nice theory, but it doesn't play out. Stevens was the best blocker in the draft and we couldn't have gotten anyone that good in the 4th. And seeing as how we didn't have nay other good blockers, plus the fact that we can't be 100% sure of Crumpler's health after last year, Stevens was a reasonable pick in the 3rd. He'll get quite a bit of playing time and will fill a role that no one else on the roster can do nearly as well as he can.
     
  3. Gut

    Gut Pro Bowler

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    You said we wouldnt take Johnson if we had a player rated higher than him...and yet you agree that several other teams did exactly that with more talented players. Can you prove the Titans did do that as well?

    Prove they didn't. Since neither of us have access to their draft board, we can take one piece of circumstantial evidence...they said (to my surprise) that they had over 31 players rated as 1st rnd picks. Hard to believe they'd have that many and none of them were a wr.

    First, you said we as fans don't know what we're talking about. I believe I've proved that I know what I'm talking about. Nowhere did I say I knew more than a scout. But even with less info than a scout has, I can make some good decisions about how I grade a player...afterall, I grade them similarly (what they can and can't do and how that projects to the NFL) to how other scouts grade them.

    Im curious...do you think you dont know what ur talking about when it comes to football or do you value your own opinion?

    We drafted Mason for his return skills immediately and hopefully develop into a slot WR.

    And how, pretell, do u know that? Ive read that hes a good blocker. I have not read that he's a phenominal blocker...but several TE's were considered good blockers too that went later. So he was a reasonable pick, I just think we could have gotten better value from our 3rd and found a reasonal facsimile of Stevens.

    Gut

    Gut
     
  4. You might have an argument if the Titans went after a position of immediate need like the Falcons, Texans, and Ravens did. But we didn't. We took a RB, and our starting RB is returning so it wasn't an immediate need.

    So yes, we know pretty conclusively that the Titans didn't skip their highest rated player for a pick at need position. And I certainly don't see any players picked right after Johnson who we clearly should have ranked higher.

    What kind of argument is that? You can't defend your point, but somehow it's on my shoulders to disprove it? That's like you saying that there is no doubt that Jeff Fisher is from Pluto yet I'm the one who has to disprove it. You can't just obviously make stuff up and expect people to just take your word on it. Prove it. Hell, even give us a shred of evidence for starters...

    How many East Carolina games did you watch last year? How many Eastern Michigan games? How many Washburn games?

    Sure, you can grade them. So can I. But it's pretty meaningless for us to grade a player we've never seen. Hell, even for players we've actually watched play, you don't watch them all that closely in the case of the vast majority of individual players. That's why scouts get paid to do the job. They spend all their working hours evaluating players, you spend a few minutes. After all, I believe you were the one talking about being too busy to post anymore.

    Not when it comes to evaluating potential draftees. That's why I buy a draft guide every year and read draft sites. Are you telling me you never read them and evaluate all the players all by yourself?

    No, simply not true. We drafted him as a WR. The fact that he could be a returner simply made him more valuable (as it does for all players). But hey, if you'd like to argue that we drafted him as a return man after his senior averages of 18.7 yards per kickoff return and 10.1 yards per punt return as the Spartans' primary return man, I'll let your reputation as a talent evaluator hang on those numbers.

    Teams draft players with the expectation that they can play a position in the NFL. Even Devin Hester wasn't drafted just to be a return man. They thought he could be a CB or a WR and in fact his lack of a true position was what pushed his stock down to the end of the 2nd round goes to show that playing a position is the key regardless of amazing athleticism.

    The same way I know anything about most of the players in the draft... the "draft experts" said so...
     
  5. Childress79

    Childress79 Loungefly ®

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    Thank you,it's appreciated.
     
  6. Gut

    Gut Pro Bowler

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    Amusing...

    The FACT that other teams took players of need over quality PROVES that NFL teams do this. If you are relying on draft experts, most of them had multiple WR's as first rnd quality picks....and yet you don't think so - which seems odd considering where u get your info. The Titans said they wanted a playmaker and they thought Johnson fit the bill... Perhaps they think he can be a better playmaker in terms of homerun threat than a 1st rnd rated wr.

    You have no conclusive argument on this. Furthermore, if the Titans had over 31 players rated as first rnd picks, it is a near certainty that they had a least 1 wr rated as a first rnd pick...and more likely 2-3.

    This was an attempt at humor. Neither you nor I can prove what's on the Titans draft board except that before the draft they said they had over 31 picks rated as 1st rnders. Can you find them saying they didn't have any wr's rated as first rnd picks? If not, the likely reality is that they did have 1-3 wr's rated as first rnd picks. That's as close as either of us is going to get to proof unless u can get Fisher to tell you...

    I find it amusing that you read a draft mag and then tell me who is and isn't a 1st rnd pick, who is and isnt the best blocking TE in the draft. Which publication is most accurate in it's diagnosis of players where you get all of your perfect info? Me, I watch a lot of college football, tape a lot of college football, see games on utorrent, talk to a lot of draftniks who can watch games I can't, watch players over a few years, search the internet for video of anyone I havent seen, and read all the draft publications I feel are more accurate.

    You make ur draft grades your way...I make mine my way.

    Which draft sites listed our new TE as the best blocker in the draft?

    Pretty funny that we drafted him as a WR but he was a returner for us for a while before really seeing the field as a WR....

    And as I recall, he was a pretty good returner and all purpose yardage guy for the Titans...so I guess my evaluation of him as a good returner was pretty accurate - thank you. And if you dig inside his 'avg,' you'll find he had a lot of potential that was displayed in games.

    Then I guess you only know what you read, not what you see...
     
  7. Yes, but that doesn't do anything to suggest that the Titans did it, and that is the only question at hand.

    What are you talking about? Where did I ever say the Titans didn't have a WR was rated as a 1st round pick? Just to make it easy, I never said that.

    I merely showed that they clearly didn't have one rated higher than Chris Johnson. If they had ranked any of the WRs higher than they ranked Johnson then they obviously wouldn't have drafted Johnson.

    I have no problem with people grading players the way the see fit, just don't try and tell me you evaluate all the players in the draft yourself. It's a fulltime job for NFL scouts and you made it very clear that you have all sorts of time constraints between school, your job (obviously not as an NFL scout), and family.

    As for Stevens, I heard someone on draft day on TV coverage saying he was the best blocker in the draft (Mayock? I don't remember). Other sources don't specifically say that but I compared him to other players as ranked by the 2 draft guides I bought (PFW, Pro Football Draft Guide '08) and a few on the net and they all had him listed as a great blocker and that wasn't true of the other TEs.

    He was a backup WR, thus he contributed on special teams. That's the norm for young players who aren't starting. Why would Mason be any different? He was a solid returner and better than anyone else we had, simple as that. But he wasn't drafted as a returner.

    Seeing as how I don't watch much college football, yes. I rely primarily on what I read for the draft, plus what limited video I see. I'm not going to try and pretend that I am able to scout every player eligible for the draft...
     
  8. Gut

    Gut Pro Bowler

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    You seemed to have it fixed in your mind that the Titans took the best player on their board since you keep making statements like...

    "If they had ranked any of the WRs higher than they ranked Johnson then they obviously wouldn't have drafted Johnson."

    I pointed out that many teams don't take their highest rated player and you agreed with this. Therefore, neither you nor I can know if the Titans took the player they thought was the best fit (or perhaps what they viewed as the best playmaker) vs a higher rated player (at WR or another position).

    So stop repeating this as if it's a fact. Neither of us knows...

    No I dont have gamefilm on every player nor see every player live or on tv. I'd say I've seen more players than most of the fans and have been to the draft several times. I also have lots of draftnik friends and amongst all of us, we've probably seen most everyone in the draft. If someone's seen a player I havent, we talk about that player so we all have some insight beyond what a draft guide or site says. In terms of the information I have access to...which is a lot...I do evaluate (from all my info) about 95% of the players who get drafted. So I don't consider myself an 'average' fan who buys 1-2 draft mags and visits a couple of sites for 95% of his info. I would say I know quite a bit more. But even if you visit only one site or buy one draft mag, doesn't mean you can't argue (effectively) that a player is a good or bad player in your opinion...as long as you're capable of discussing said player and his traits.

    OK, my info isn't that he's the best blocker, but a good blocker.

    I disagree on the Mason thing...but we can agree to disagree...

    You don't need to scout every player to have a viable opinion...nor do you need to pretend to. You can argue the points your magazine or website makes (or what you heard a Mayock say) or from what video you may have seen. You may or may not be right...but the discussion is what makes it fun.

    Gut:)
     
  9. Blazing Arrow

    Blazing Arrow The 12th man

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    Who will be the first to have a post an entire page long?
     
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