QB Checklist

Discussion in 'Tennessee Titans and NFL Talk' started by JCBRAVE, Jul 8, 2012.

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  1. JCBRAVE

    JCBRAVE goTitans 2019 Survivor Champion

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    Seriously? This is what you bring to the table?

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  2. MaxFischer

    MaxFischer Rookie

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    I love it. Because I don't agree with professional scouts, that means my opinion doesn't matter? That makes total sense, especially because NFL scouts never get anything wrong.... Just like the "establishment" was correct about Jemarcus Russell, Ryan Leaf, Vince Young, Blaine Gabbert, etc. etc. etc.

    I've said many times that I thought Andy Dalton was a better prospect than Jake Locker. And it simply has to do with a comparing their college careers.

    • Dalton had the better games against tough competition.
    • Dalton was more accurate against tough competition.
    • Dalton only threw 2 interceptions in his last 9 games in his senior year. Locker had 10 Ints in his last 9 games.
    • Dalton and Locker had almost equal amounts of pass attempts (Dalton a few less). But Dalton threw for 27 TDs and 6 Ints; Locker threw 17 TDs and 9 Ints. Granted, Dalton had a weaker schedule. But like I said, Dalton did better against the tough compeitition. They had one common opponent, and Locker had the better game (Oregon State). Apart from that, Dalton kicks Locker's ass.
    • People like to excuse the bad stats and say that at least Locker won those games. As if Locker contributed to the Nebraska win? If you want to talk wins, then Dalton went 13-0 his senior year.
    You can make excuses about Locker's supporting cast all you want, but it's hard to deny those conclusions.

    But yeah, keep on deferring to the NFL "experts". Because they're never wrong...
     
  3. EdRomeo

    EdRomeo Football Fan

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    If all things were equal this would be a logic and sensible way to evaluate prospects.
    However, all things aren't equal.
    You mention a bunch of team stats which are only directly comparable on teams with similar or the same talent level. (TCU and Washington do not have the same talent level)
    Second (and laughably) you make no mention of physical skillset.
    But, rest assured when you draft a player you draft their physical skillset not their stats.

    If you said you think Dalton is a more polished passer that has better ball placement on intermediate and short throws then Locker then I would agree.
    However, I would say that overall Jake is a better in every other category.
    Jake is natural thrower that has the velocity to throw to all levels of the field. Dalton (who I like) has struggles throwing the ball with velocity on throws like the deep dig, bang-8/skinny post, deep comeback etc.
    And while Dalton's arm strength can improve over time it will never reach Locker's.

    Locker is clearly the superior:
    o throwing outside the pocket and one the move
    o he's a far better playmaker that can extend plays, avoid sacks, he can convert 3rds down by running
    o better deep ball thrower


    We'll just grant that little fact for you know? Never mind that Dalton had a better team too.
    That's kinda major hit against your stat based argument ya know?
    Jake 21/35 286 5 TDs 1 INT
    Dalton 17/27 175 1 TD 1 INT

    lol, I actually remember that game.
    I guess 13 carries 83 yards 1 TD don't count? Those rushing yards didn't open up the running lanes for Polk?
    I guess that TD run doesn't count on the score board I guess?
    Nor did Jake throw a beatiful pass that set-up on the TD run?

    I repeat: the goal of evaluation is to isolate the player's skillset independent of the team around them looking at team stats like the ones you mention only skews the evaluation.
    Team stats are clearly and obviously effected by factors outside the players control.

    If you actually watched that game it was obvious that Nebraska defense was better then Washington's offense. Their DBs (Akumara/Dennard are both in the NFL btw) dominated Washington's WR and the Huskies didn't have a player at TE. But the handful of plays that can win or lose a ball game were made by Jake Locker.
     
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  4. seafandawghawk

    seafandawghawk Starter

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    EdRomeo wrote:

    ""If you actually watched that game it was obvious that Nebraska defense was better then Washington's offense. Their DBs (Akumara/Dennard are both in the NFL btw) dominated Washington's WR and the Huskies didn't have a player at TE. But the handful of plays that can win or lose a ball game were made by Jake Locker.""

    Not that the bowl win against Nebraska really matters to Locker's career as a Titan, but you're right about that game. He had something like 19 pass attempts, completing only 5-6 (just going by memory)-- but maybe only one was a bad passes. A good half of those incompletions were deliberately thrown away to avoid taking a sack. Nebraska's secondary, especially their corners, absolutely dominated UW's receivers, humbled them, made them look like kids in the men's league.

    But Locker burned their D with his legs several times, which kept NU from keying on Polk. And he avoided all kinds of heat that NU threw against UW, avoiding big losses, and didn't trun the ball over even though he was seriously under the gun through the whole game. Without Locker's athleticism, NU would have shut Polk down and probably shut out UW. His poise and athleticism made a difference in a game where the O was seriously overmatched.
     
  5. MaxFischer

    MaxFischer Rookie

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    Yeah, thanks for pointing out the obvious: you draft their "physical skillset." Dalton's physical skillset allowed him to have a very senior season. Locker's physical skillset led him to throw for less than 100 yards in 4 games.

    Given that a vast majority of NFL throws are made in the pocket, Locker supposedly being the better "outside the pocket passer"... something I dispute... isn't a big deal.

    Locker may be a better runner, but he's not the better playmaker. Dalton is way more adept at throwing touchdowns. Locker had 17 TDs in 332 attempts in his senior year. That's not good at all.

    If you want to take one game over a body of work, then that's foolish. Look at the good game Dalton had against Wisconsin, and then check and see if Locker did good against a highly ranked team. He didn't.

    lol, so Locker was forced to run against Nebraska because he couldn't pass the ball against them. I like how you can ignore 2 terrible passing games against Nebraska.

    Incorrect. There's a historic basis for looking at the college stats of qbs and predicting future success. And one of the best metrics is completion percentage and TDs per attempt. But I forgot, you don't think stats matter.

    Right. Obviously the Nebraska Defense was better than the Washington Offense... that's because Jake Locker was the quarterback.

    Here's a task for you: Find me an NFL quarterback who is considered good or elite, and see if they performed as poorly as Locker did against tough competition in their senior college season. In particular, did any of them throw for less than 100 yards in 4 games?

    I've already looked at it, and here's the answer: I looked at Big Ben, Tom Brady, Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers, Matt Ryan, Eli Manning, Peyton Manning, Tony Romo, Matthew Stafford, Philip Rivers... None performed as poorly as Locker.

    Locker's senior year at Washington is at a unique level of crappiness. Perhaps crappy NFL quarterbacks sucked as much as Locker when they were in college.
     
  6. EdRomeo

    EdRomeo Football Fan

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    If it so obvious that you draft a players physical skillset then why do you struggle to discuss it?
    Even in the quote above when you attempt to discuss physical skillset you still end up talking about stats.

    It might not be a big deal to you, but its a very bankable NFL trait that he shares with QBs like Aaron Rodgers.
    Disputing that Locker is a great outsider the pocket movement passer is non-sensical.

    Ah, back to your team stats yes Dalton threw more TDs...so did....Colt Brennan and Timmy Chang...I could go on and on about stat monsters but that doesn't make them good prospects no does it?
    Dalton is a better playmaker? On what planet.
    Locker better velocity, better escapablity, better at avoiding pass rush, better at extending a play, better at throwing on the move.
    But, Dalton is the better playmaker? Yeah, okay.

    Hey, that's your argument not mine.
    I just find it amusing that a stat muncher like yourself isn't statisitically supported by the one common opponent they had.
    Jake deystroyed Oregon St. and Dalton struggled, you don't find that funny?

    Yes, Jake was terrible against Nebraska the first game (kinda like Dalton against Oregon St. huh?) but Jake won the bowl game against Nebraska by making plays with his arm and his legs. You know a QBs legs are part of their skillset right? Its not just Aaron Rodgers passing ability that makes him great its his legs too.

    lol, you actual believe this?
    I got a bunch of great QB prospects for you then bro...Timmy Chang, Colt Brenan, dude from Houston, dude from Texas Tech, Zach Colaros etc...
    lol, you think comp% is an individual stat? unaffected by drops, route running or overall receiver ability, pass protection and scheme?

    Oh, and of course stats matter.
    But evaluating a college QB prospect is about skillset not about looking at a bunch of counting stats.
     
  7. Ten_Titans

    Ten_Titans Pro Bowler

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    One thing I would like to mention on accuracy.

    Throwing a football and a baseball use essentialy the same mechanics. When I played baseball in highschool, and we couldn't practice outside, our coach would have us throw football in the gym. You throw them the same way.

    Jake Locker was a pitcher who got drafted to play baseball.

    Common sense dictates he should have the innate ability to throw a football with accuracy.
     
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