Question about DE? Jason Pierre-Paul vs Morgan

Um...

I think griffen has a higher ceiling ONLY because of his explosiveness for his size. He has the height, bulk and speed to do it all. He also has proven that even as a part time guy he can make quite an impact with the pass rush. It won't be so easy for him in the NFL, but at least he's got beating college guys down. JPP is not that far along yet.

I agree that JPP has a very high motor, but his lack of experience and lack of game film makes him a huge bust gamble. Plus, he should have KILLED the competition playing against college RT's and with his size/speed/athleticism AND Selvie on the other side...you couldn't set up a BIGGER mismatch. If Morgan, Graham, or Hughes had that situation they'd have 20 sacks. So it's a BIG concern and I THINK the Titans should start getting away from gamble on greatness picks (while CJ worked out...most others didn't).

Why do you think Morgan is 'easily' the best considering Graham and Hughes look as impressive in games (I think Hughes is the most consistent disruptor) and Graham dominated Senior Bowl practices and the game and was even better against Bulaga. Morgan does have the height advantage. I do think that if Morgan is there, the Titans will take him.

Gut

 

I say that because of three reasons. One, I'm worried about Graham's size. He might have an advantage over these tall NFL tackles, but I'm more worried about his arm length. To me, arm length is very important, especially for DE and OT. Two, Hughes played next to Daryl Washington, another potential first round linebacker, and he was on a talented TCU defense. He's also very small. He'll most likely be drafted as a 3-4 OLB. Finally, when I watch Morgan, I see intelligent plays out of him. He reads screens, doesn't fight off run blocks well, but can read the run, and shows a variety of pass rush moves. Easily may have been too strong of a word, but I just don't see how Morgan is not the best DE in the draft.

 

Give me Graham over all those guys. He proved in the Senior bowl, against top level talent, that he can still dominate. What he lacks in size he makes up for in heart, motor, and talent. The reason I think the Titans take him over the others is because he is SO good against the run.

 

draft anyone named Pierre

 

Ah...

Graham was better against Bulaga than Morgan was and Bulaga will be a first round LT. He also easily beat every tackle at the Senior Bowl. These are strong indication that him being a bit short/arm length should be less of an issue. Hughes also has a pretty long arm for his height (33") compared to Morgan's 34+. Would you take Lindsey Witten over all of them because he has a 35" arm? I wouldn't. While it's a factor, guys like Dumervil and others aren't hurt by it.

Hughes played DE and Washington played MLB. Yes Washington is a 1-2 rnd talent, but so what? It's not like Dunlap who's surrounded by talent everywhere or JPP who had a much better rusher on the other side.

Graham and Hughes play to their speeds. Morgan on his pass rush looks quick, but he looks slow trying to chase down (as Iowa's QB easily ran away from him).

Morgan may not be the best since he doesn't have elite athleticism, seems to fatigue quicker than he should, isn't as fast on tape running in a straight line and Hughes and Graham out play him on tape. That's NOT to say that Morgan isn't good, he's just not clear cut ahead unless you give him a big advantage for having the right height and arm length.

Gut

 

Just because Brandon Graham beat Bulaga and Morgan couldn't doesn't prove anything. Just remember Vernon Gholston, one player who could beat Jake Long while others couldn't.

Now I do agree that Graham is probably going to be a phenomenal player, not only is Dumervil a good example, but look at Dwight Freeney who is also 6'1" 270lbs.

As a pass rusher I like Graham better than Morgan, but Morgan I feel, with the additional wingspan and height will be better against the run (something which Freeney has against him).

Griffen is someone who never lived up to his hype or measureables, and has a questionable motor.. I don't like drafting people like this.

One thing to add with Pierre-Paul is that he could have had the opportunity to double his sack stats, the problem was that he at times over ran the play.. he has elite measureables though and with some teaching of technique and if he can learn how to play under control he could be extremely productive. I think give him some time with Washburn and he'd reach his potential.

I think you take Morgan at 16 if he's there (Doubt he will be), but Pierre-Paul is a nice consolation prize.

 

1. brandon graham
2. derrick morgan
3. jason pierre-paul
4. gerry hughes
5. everson griffen
6. carlos dunlap

that's my order.

 

Ah...

It's not like Gholston owned him, just that he had beaten him. Like everything else, no ONE thing makes or breaks you as long as you're in the ballpark. Being able to beat Bulaga (repeatedly...unlike Gholston) is a very good sign but doesn't gurantee anything. Then you look at the Senior Bowl practices where Graham was nearly unstoppable against a LOT of good talent. Does it guarantee anything? No. But it's a very good sign. The more good signs you have the LESS risk you have. His size/speed/film give you an idea of his talent ceiling. Shorter guys CAN become 14-15 sack players but it's much harder for them to do and traditionally, need to be awesome at something else (like Freeney's amazing speed AND balance AND spin move). Gholston is a good guy to name because he was a workout warrior and despite a high number of sacks one season, he got 'fat' on bad QB's or bad OL's and had like half of his sacks against 2 QB's. He was a workout warrior and much more of a great athlete than football player. Griffen and JPP are in that mold as you don't even know if these guys could be decent backups unless they put it together. On the other hand, Clay Matthews had that knock too last year and look at how well he played. But they are much riskier players because you can certainly get a Gholston and leave a great athlete riding the pine.

I would not draft a DE in rnd 1 if he doesn't have the potential to be a big time pass rusher for our defensive scheme. I think Morgan, Graham and Hughes could all be dominant pass rushers but they go about it a bit differently.

Me either!!!

Perhaps, but he's too big of a gamble at #16 AND even if he eventually does turn into a dominant pass rusher, that may not happen for another 3-4 seasons......so what are we supposed to do in the meantime?

For exactly the Gholston bust, I would not take JPP at #16. You drop down and take him lower in round 1 so at least if you can get a late 2nd out of it, it mitigates your risk to some degree (a late 2nd rnd pick could still be a VERY GOOD player...just no more TE's!!!).

At #16 you look at...

DE - Morgan, Graham, Hughes - might be able to get graham or Hughes later rnd 1. I personally like Graham and Hughes ahead of Morgan but Morgan is a pretty 'safe' pick.

DT - Odrick, Price, Cody - think all could be had mid-late 1 (and Cody could slip into rnd 2 if people are concerned about his lack of pass rush and/or weight).

LB - McClain, Weatherspoon, Washington - I like all of these guys but think Washington could be had later and in the right system, COULD be as good as the others. McClain will go first.

CB - Berry, Haden, Wilson, Thomas - Berry would have to arrive at the draft smoking a joint for him to slip out of the top 10. No chance he falls to 16 and it'd be a bit of a dream for him to drop to 10 where we COULD go get him. Barring a miracle, Haden and Wilson to me are clearly the top 2 CB's though we have to see how fast Wilson is. Thomas would be an excellent pick...just don't know if he'd be a S or CB. Think Wilson and Thomas could slip to mid-late first while Haden could go in the 10-15 range.

Question is, how much do you value a Wilson or Haden vs an Odrick? If they really want a CB or DE, we almost certainly take that player at #16 since those positions could already be down to 1 or 2 guys.

Gut

 

This years draft is driving me crazy. Usually, I can decide a favorite that I want the Titans to draft. Last year, I really wanted Vontae Davis from Illinois. 2008 I really liked Felix Jones. 2007 I liked Robert Meachem.

What I wanted: Vontae Davis, Felix Jones, and Robert Meachem.
What We got: Kenny Britt, Chris Johnson, and Michael Griffin.
wow. glad the Titans don't listen to me!!

BUT back to the subject, this years draft is crazy. I just can NOT decide on a favorite player. I like Joe Haden, Kyle Wilson, Brandon Graham, Derrick Morgan, Earl Thomas, Everson Griffen, Jason Pierre-Paul, and McClain in the first... I JUST CAN'T DECIDE!!!

 

Well...

Just eliminate Griffen and JPP and you have some nice choices. JPP and Griffen are too big of a gamble. If the Titans take one of those at 16 and he busts it will set the franchise back a couple of years. Why take the risk when we have 3 VERY good players available at the same position?

Why did you want Vontae Davis...another very talented guy but little passion for the game which means he has a much higher bust factor. You seem to like the gamble on greatness picks.

Gut