Want to get rid of Webster?

Discussion in 'Tennessee Titans and NFL Talk' started by Thaddeus43, Nov 5, 2014.

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  1. Two Kings

    Two Kings NJ Titan

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    I'm not going to comment on each little thing, there is too much. I'll start with the first.

    That is my issue with this argument against Webster. All I have heard from people is Hunter was a bad pick, Warmack was a bad pick, Wright was a bad pick. Locker was a bad pick.

    I think they were solid picks.

    "But they are no were near HOF! They were first rounders and aren't doing chit!"

    HOW is that all Webster's fault? You said it yourself. The development of Brady, the decision to start him, and other variables are all on other people other than the GM.

    Wright was a great pick. Warmack was a great pick. Sadly they aren't thriving right now for various reasons other than Webster.
     
  2. Riverman

    Riverman That may be.... Tip Jar Donor

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    It isn't an issue of "fault". It is an issue of responsibility. The difference is that a professional is PAID to deliver results. And it is Webster's RESPONSIBILITY to staff the team with talent both in the form of players and coaches. He has directed his efforts poorly in that regard. His performance record indicates how well he has met his responsibility. And the summary of his performance is measure by the lack of performance by the team. Too early to tell about the Whiz hire, but not about the performance/talent of the players that he has been involved in selecting for the past 5 years.

    His direction of spending overall has not yielded the expected results.
     
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  3. Two Kings

    Two Kings NJ Titan

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    Gotcha. I completely get what you mean.

    Here is where I would counter however. You mention that it is too early to know from Whiz hire, essentially saying this last year. That leaves us evaluating the period with Munch. I believe I'm correct in understanding that this is what you mean and what most people here are evaluating Web on.

    So the statement, "He has directed his efforts poorly in that regard" in references to players and coaches, is where I feel there is lost context.

    Let's talk coaches. Adams took forever to negotiate with Fisher, which resulted in Fisher moving on and us entering the coaching search extremely late.

    This left us with hiring Munch. Who else was available? That left Munch to hire crappy coordinators. Who else was available. That's year 1. I'm not seeing how Web could have fixed that.

    Year 2. Munch fires the O coordinator, promotes midget and even goes as far as getting the old colts O coordinator to help. Munch's decision or Web's pressure to improve a horrible situation? That is year 2.

    Year 3. Munch is a lame duck. We extend to potentially draw in some new coaching blood. We get Greg Williams to help out the D. Munch's decision or Web's pressure to improve the defense? At the end of the year, nothing has worked and extreme pressure is put on Munch to fully conform to Web and the new owner of the Titan's vision for the future. He declines and resigns. Impressive from where I'm sitting instead of just being content with mediocrity.

    Year 4. Web goes out and strikes one of the hottest Coaches on the market to bring change and a new vision to the team.

    That context is so important in my opinion. I don't know how someone can sit there and say fire Web, when he has been trying, through a lot of adversity to get this team off the ground.

    I see progress, and I see someone working hard. I don't see someone that deserves to get fired.
     
  4. Gut

    Gut Pro Bowler

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    To be honest, I had a first grade on Warmack as did everyone. Some had him as a top 5 player. It's not like we are talking about a 2nd round prospect we reached a round for. I think he was there 2nd choice (though I have zero evidence to support...just my own feeling). I think they thought Barr would fall to them and if he didn't, Warmack would be there. Both players fit needs as well.

    My evidence they didn't try? They said as much in their post draft discussions. They said Chance was the guy they wanted the whole time and didn't consider moving.
     
  5. Gut

    Gut Pro Bowler

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    Right here we are talking about 4 players. But the real context is the entire team has his fingerprints on it from draft picks to free agents to players re-signed and players not re-signed. He was GM or a Director for Personel before that so all the players on the team he has a lot of responsibility for.

    Hunter was a 'bad' pick because of what we gave up to gamble on him developing into a starter and beyond. Results have been less than what is desired and expected though none of us are writing him off at this point. He still is developing...but this is the first year we've also seen him take steps backwards:( But maybe all the lights go on and we have a mini-Megatron and the perception totally changes and it will be the steal of the draft. IF.

    Warmack was a solid pick that again, isn't performing to expectations (especially since we had a HOF OL as our HC and a HOF OL Coaching the OL).

    Wright I didn't particularly like because I don't like small players in rnd 1 in general. Most people think he's an excellent slot WR and not a real #1. While I didn't like the pick, he is arguably our best playmaker. Then again, is he gonna provide #1 WR production? I'll give him a pass til we have a QB who gets him the ball 10x a game.

    Locker was the most agregious pick. The Mel Kiper's or McShay's can say whatever they want. The NFL Advisory committee didn't give Locker a First rnd grade as a Junior while McShay was saying he would be the first overall pick in the draft. By draft day though, it was clear Locker and Ponder and Gabbertt were NOT first round QB's and yet each team reached for them. Was QB a huge need, yes. Do you waste a top 10 pick on a 2nd or 3rd round player? NO!

    But I digress, these 4 players aren't the only argument. The whole roster is his performance record and our draft picks and their ability to play in the NFL is a big factor in that. His record on both accounts is not good.
     
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  6. Gut

    Gut Pro Bowler

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    None of us know who is at fault here so let's leave this out of the equation.

    Answer your own question. What Coaches in the NFL AND college were available? I guarantee you Munch wasn't the only one. And you think the ONLY coordinators and position coaches available are garbage? There are a lot of good-great coaches in college. Not all of them would come to the NFL and not all of them would come to the Titans...but there are some good coaches available. Much chose to hire people he knew and had already worked with. Webster gives his stamp of approval. How could he improved it? NOT allow Munch to hire the coordinators he did nor some of the bad position coaches. And who did we sign that year in free agency and who did we draft? All of that could have been drastically improved IMO. How do you think Webster did this season?

    Probably a bit of both but Webster still allowed him to hire him in the first place. Again, did we get rid of all those bad coaches and coordinators you gave Webster a pass on and get really good ones? NO! He allowed Munch to hire from within, not change our DC and other coaches. Who did we draft, who did we keep and what free agents did we sign? How do you think Webster did this season?

    I think the Williams hire was Munch's decision because it fits his MO. Hire a guy he knows and trusts. But again, this was one of Munch's problems as a coach. Hire Williams but keep Gray? He let Gray keep playing Griffin and others even when they were stinking. No accountability and that problem started ABOVE the HC. Did Webster hold Munch accountable? NO! Playoffs or gone was the directive and no playoffs. So they were gonna let Munch stay but ask him to change his whole coaching staff to get better coordinators and coaches (which is what Webster should have focused on in day 1). Remember, Munch made the decisions to step down...Webster was content to keep him as HC but you think that is good?

    How do you think Webster did this season with the draft, FA, the roster?

    Yes. But Whiz's results have been far worse with a BETTER team. That doesn't look good. But I won't 'blame' him for that because I think Whiz was the best decision he could make at that time and Whiz will have time to groom a QB and prove himself.

    This is a results business. Locker busts his ass and tries as hard as anyone in the league. But his opportunity to be our starting QB has come and gone (barring injury). And he hopefully gets a CHANCE to backup so perhaps he gets another opportunity in the future. Trying will only get you so far. No one thinks Webster isn't trying, we just disagree with a lot of moves he's made and the current roster is his evaluation. It's not good enough.
     
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  7. Two Kings

    Two Kings NJ Titan

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    We on this board have talked in depth how no one was available. Believe me, those were the best choices we had.
     
  8. Two Kings

    Two Kings NJ Titan

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    Who was gonna come in? What was Munch's contract like? A lot of times coaches have final say in who they hire.

    I'm just not buying into this Web hating. Web is good in my opinion. Nothing you have suggested so far even remotely makes me think otherwise. Let's see what Web can do with Whiz.
     
  9. Gut

    Gut Pro Bowler

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    I strongly disagree and the proof is in the pudding as they say. Were fewer coaches and the 'new class' of candidates mostly scooped up? Yes. But Munch isn't looking for necessarily the best coaches, he's looking for people he thinks are good AND he has worked with. He said as much and most of his hires were either people he knew and had worked with or had worked with other coaches or friends of his.

    So many very talented coaches in the college ranks had no shot because he didn't know them already or hadn't worked with them. So saying he had no options when he didn't have an optimal timing situations is meaningless when he didn't look to go after that talent the next year when he DID have those options. So he get's no pass for that.

    And I don't have to believe you, I've been on this board since 2003. He had many other options but he chose not to explore them.
     
  10. Gut

    Gut Pro Bowler

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    When you vet a coach as a potential hire, you ask them who they want to bring in as coaches and who they think they can get and who are their ideal coaches are. If Webster wasn't on board with who Munch wanted to bring in, you don't hire Munch as your HC. Again, this is on the GM who HIRED him and negotiated his contract.

    So let's again start with something simple since you can see no wrong in what Webster has done. I've mentioned this before and it has been ignored so let's give it one more try.

    Do you think Webster should have given Griffen a huge contract extension when Griffen has been playing poorly for years?

    Do you think we should have over-drafted Locker which has set this organization back several years?
     
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