Your Top 18 Big Board

Discussion in 'NFL Draft' started by 2ToneBlueBlood, Apr 14, 2017.

  1. 8isGreat

    8isGreat Special Teams Standout Tip Jar Donor

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    I understand this very well. Not to date myself, but I've been following the draft since the 80s. However, we're not talking about Winston and Mariota here (or even Goff/Wentz for that matter), we're talking about Watson and Trubisky, Watson who has never played in a pro-style offense and may need a few years to develop and Trubisky who has one year of collegiate experience, both over Foster that was a 5-star recruit out of high school; the #1 LB recruit in the country; a unanimous All-American and First Team All-SEC. Oh, and did I mention he was also the Butkus Award winner as the nation’s top linebacker!

    I realize that tackles, QBs and PRs get a boost, but we're talking about the #1 LB in the country.
    #51
  2. 8isGreat

    8isGreat Special Teams Standout Tip Jar Donor

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    See my reply to @615nick above!

    Once again, we're not talking about Winston/Mariota or even Goff/Wentz. If he had those guys over Foster I wouldn't even bat an eye (well maybe with Goff), but here we're talking about Watson/Trubisky.

    This QB draft class is weak and it's quite apparent to me that some draft experts are enamoured with the position and love to overinflate the talent there, especially when it's thin in order to make up for its shortcomings. This is not a good year at QB and there is no one that can convince me that any of the QBs in this draft are worthy of being considered a top-10 prospect.

    Just my 2 cents worth.
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2017
    #52
  3. Gut

    Gut Pro Bowler

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    First, you think Foster is awesome and that's fine. But do you understand that he - as an NFL prospect - is viewed against different standards in the NFL. #1 recruit has more meaning in college than it does for an NFL prospect. There have been top recruits who don't even make it to the NFL so it doesn't carry much weight. 5 star recruit...same thing. College awards...I'm napping.

    Go by film, experience, size and athleticism and you have a much better idea of what they are likely to do in the NFL. A guy like Johnny Manziel is a good example!

    If you watch tape of Foster, he's doesn't have great run D instincts. He sometimes takes a second to figure out where the ball is. In college - with that D not allowing any holes to develop, he can get away with that. In the NFL, that means fighting thru an interior OL coming and contacting you 3-5 yards beyond the LOS. His size then becomes a big factor as he's very small by NFL standards at only 6' 225lbs. Take his shoulder injuries and immaturity into it and you have a high upside guy who needs help to be a great player on and off the field. That doesn't mean we shouldn't draft him or that he can't be an awesome LB in the NFL...he can. But if guys need help to be great and are on the small size (height and weight), you tend not to draft them in the top 5 or you tend to pay for it. Adam Jones comes to mind though I think we took him at 6.

    Marcus Mariota didn't play in a pro style offense. Neither did Cam Newton. How are they working out? Neither had to wait 2-3 years to develop as we hear every year with spread QB's. That also doesn't mean every qb can come in and start in year 1. And some of those qb's will crash and burn like a lot of qb's who DID come from pro style offenses crashed and burned. The NFL is very difficult!

    All 3 prospects we are talking about will need to go to the right team with the right coaching and the right adjustments to allow them to reach their potential. If you're a dumb team that tries to hammer and square peg into a round hole, both will fail. Jabrill Peppers is one of the best examples of this. If he goes to the right team that will utilize his strengths and limit his weaknesses, they will be very happy and everyone will say they got a great pick. If you put him on the wrong team and ask him to do things he's not ready for or not good at, he'll be a 'bust.'

    Same thing if Foster goes to a team that's not gonna protect him so he gets caught taking on 320lb OG's who outweigh him by 100lbs and have a running head start while he's trying to figure out where the ball is.

    Some people put a lot of stock in HS recruitment, x star recruit, college award, blah blah blah. I don't because when it comes down to it, what can they do ON THE FIELD in the NFL is all that matters. If Foster goes to the wrong team, no one will care that he was a 5 star recruit coming out of HS or an all american. He'll become another cautionary tale of how a superstar fell from grace. When the reality will be, he's a prospect with issues and if you ignore those issues, you won't allow him to be great. But the player gets blamed or the gm for making a 'bad' pick.

    And btw, Im not saying those qb's are better prospects...just that there is a valid argument to be made for them to be better prospects because Foster...like them...needs a good fit.
    #53
  4. 8isGreat

    8isGreat Special Teams Standout Tip Jar Donor

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    I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but a lot of what you are saying can be said about many prospects including Watson and Trubisky. Every prospect has flaws!

    Furthermore not one of us has a crystal ball that shows us exactly what each player will look like in the NFL. If someone did they'd be making millions for an NFL team working in their front office.

    All we have to go by is what we've seen on the field, how they performed against the competition and our own projections of how the skills they've shown will translate to the NFL.

    As we discussed before, I watch a crap-ton of college football and in addition, live in SC where I see a lot of Clemson, North Carolina and Bama. I've seen all 3 players in multiple games. I've seen almost every Clemson game (including many from the previous season) and I watched almost every Bama game and it's just my humble opinion that after watching all those games and considering each player's strengths and weaknesses Foster is the better pro prospect over Watson and Trubisky. Had Trubisky stayed another year that may have changed, but he didn't so it is what it is.

    In regards to Watson, I have some serious concerns about his accuracy as I consistently watched him time and again at Clemson miss wide open throws with eons of time to make those throws; time he won't have in the NFL when he needs to get rid of the ball in 3.15 seconds or less! Furthermore, as I'm sure you know, those windows get much tighter in the NFL -- as we both know, you're rarely if ever open in the NFL. The vast majority of Watson's completions in college were often to either wide open receivers/TEs like Carr and Leggett or jump balls to Williams.

    For as many knocks you have on Foster, I can come up with similar knocks on Watson and Trubisky.

    If I were to re-order Gil Brandt's Hot 150, I'm taking Watson and Trubisky out of the top 10 and putting Foster, Howard, Barnett and McCaffrey and maybe even Dalvin Cook all ahead of those two.

    And finally, I realize Mariota played in a Spread offense, but you can't compare Watson to Mariota! Mariota was the most efficient QB in the history of CFB that made everyone around him better, while the talent around Watson made Watson better. Watson is no Mariota!
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2017
    #54
  5. Johnnyb

    Johnnyb RTR

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    I actually have to commend you a bit for going against the current group think trends of Garrett at the top and so forth. It's funny how when you look at past drafts with some of the high picks and how they flamed out, and other guys get dropped down, but are clearly very good. Everyone gets caught up in these assumptions that this guy and that guy are just the best, and just seem to ignore the glaring issues in their face.

    I remember when EVERYONE thought Aaron Curry was a can't miss prospect. Same for Warmack and Cooper in 2011. And a guy like Blaine Gabbert gets taken high. I remember watching highlights (which should make the guy look outstanding) and just thinking, "ok... I'm missing something here". But then on draft day I still wanted him because everyone kept talking about how good he was. I wanted the draft pundits to praise my team, rather than relying on my own eyes and what I saw.

    But yeah, I have to disagree on putting Foster at #1 on the board, but you do you man! I love it!
    #55
  6. 615nick

    615nick Starter

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    Its just the nature of the draft now. There aren't very many teams with a franchise qb and it's a must have in today's nfl. I don't like the qbs in this draft either and i didn't like goff last year. But, someone will still pull the trigger way to early because a lot of teams need qbs and simply because it's worth the gamble. Hell we essentially spent #2,#3 and #8 draft picks on mm8. Was it worth it? We'll find out.
    #56
  7. 8isGreat

    8isGreat Special Teams Standout Tip Jar Donor

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    Thanks. But to be clear, I'm not saying Foster is the overall #1 on my board nor was I every saying that. I was merely making a comment in regards to Gil Brandt's top 150 in which he had Watson and Trabisky in the top 10 over guys like Foster.

    My top #18 is listed in this forum thread, but Foster isn't listed number 1 there, Garrett still is (I'm not crazy). However, also remember that this top 18 thread specifically asked for us to give our top 18 board for the Titans. So the top 18 I listed in this thread isn't even my top 18 overall prospects (regardless of team), it's my top 18 specific to the Titans, which once again was what the OP asked for:

    In regards to my Top 18 Big Board (regardless of team), my top 4 are:

    1. Myles Garrett
    2. Malik Hooker
    3. Jamal Adams
    4. Jonathan Allen

    Finally, Foster who would have been listed at 6 or 7 on my Big Board (regardless of team) may have just fallen a bit due to today's recent news that he failed a drug test at the combine. :wall:
    #57
    Johnnyb high fives this.
  8. 8isGreat

    8isGreat Special Teams Standout Tip Jar Donor

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    Oh, I completely agree with you in regards to the importance of the QB position and [how can I say this politely] the wood that NFL front offices, scouts, etc. have for that position. However, having said that, regardless, of the over-inflation of talent at that position and even the importance it is to a team, I'm still not going to value guys like Watson or Tribisky over non-QB positional players that I feel are better prospects. I'm not a fool like some in the NFL that will force themselves to love a guy just because he's a QB and they need one! That's absurd!...And also a reason why there is so much turnover within the business.

    So far, to this day, I have not once ever overvalued a QB simply because he was a QB, but I have seen a lot of QBs that were overvalued and made me go WTF?! And those QBs didn't pan out! RG3 is one that comes immediately to mind. When Washington gave up the farm for RG3, I was shaking my head in disbelief. I had seen him play several times at Baylor and even though he was lighting it up game after game on his way to a Heisman, I had serious concerns about him ever becoming a star in the NFL. The guy wasn't great at progressing through his reads at all -- even for a spread QB. He'd lock onto targets and his mechanics were not good.

    I see a lot of similarities between Watson and RG3 when RG3 entered the draft. Both make inconsistent reads post-snap; both stare down intended targets; both drop their eyes too often, looking to run, if there initial read isn't there rather than progressing further through those reads; both try to force throws into small windows with poor accuracy; neither one knows how to climb the pocket while both almost always look to immediately escape the pocket; and both have trouble resetting their feet after they are moved from their initial planting position. I could go on and on!

    My point is, I feel incredibly confident in my assessment of players and don't get over-excited about players simply because they play the QB position.

    Watson may still be successful in the NFL, but he has a lot of things he needs to work on and fix!

    Finally, one thing that is hard for all of us amateur scouts to do (compared to the pro scouts) is evaluate a player based on personality. This is huge too!!! In order to make a true proper assessment of these prospects, you need to interview them. I'd love to be able to interview them! Only then could I truly feel 100% confident in my assessment of a prospect.
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2017
    #58
  9. 8isGreat

    8isGreat Special Teams Standout Tip Jar Donor

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    Also, in regards to Mariota being worth it: so far so good! Most don't realize this, but Mariota is the most efficient QB in the NFL within the redzone. The guy hasn't thrown 1 INT in the redzone!

    Obviously, that won't continue forever, but Mariota is off to an amazing start IMHO. We just need to get the guy some weapons!
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2017
    #59
    Gut high fives this.
  10. Gut

    Gut Pro Bowler

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    First, I'm not saying you can't like Foster over the others, just that someone can certainly make the argument that they like the QB's better. I agree that Foster, Watson and Trubisky all have 'warts.'

    You disregard Foster's 'holes' in his game because he makes so many impact plays. And he does...because he's also allowed to by the many great players around him! And if we or someone else can keep him clean, they can benefit from his full range of talents.

    But to suggest that Watson is helped by all the great players around him? Who? Mike Williams? Who else? Leggett is a mid-round talent. Watson has shown up huge in their two biggest games and in both games he was closing in on 500yds offense without another player contributing 100 yds themselves. Not Leggett, Williams, Cain, Renfrow, Gallman...no one. Alabama got over 200yds out of OJ Howard and Foster is surrounded by high caliber NFL talent. So I don't see how you can think Watson is helped by anyone while ignoring the fantastic help given Foster. Watson throws to a lot of open guys...just like Mariota did. I agree that Mariota made the guys around him better...but it's hard to argue that Watson doesn't also do that. How did Watson play without Williams last year and got a walkon in Hunter Renfrow instead? Still took them to the NC game and 470+ and 4 TD's later, they were close to beating Bama. But even in the loss, he moved the ball all over them and made them look vulnerable despite the fact that THAT defense has a ton of NFL talent compared to Watson's offense.

    Trubisky has the intelligence, drive, athleticism and arm talent to be a starter, but 13 starts would make me awfully nervous to draft him high.

    Again, I'm not saying I think the QB's are better than Foster, just that there is an argument to be made if someone thinks otherwise. Personally, I want all 3 QB's to go high...more good players for US!!!
    #60