Mr. Clemens goes to Washington...

Discussion in 'Other Sports' started by Hoffa, Feb 14, 2008.

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  1. PhiSlammaJamma

    PhiSlammaJamma Critical Possession

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    As I said, Canseco proved McNamee lied about Clemens involvement with Steroids. This is huge. As the party is the scene of the crime. McNamee said Clemens made contact with Canseco and discussed Steroid use. But Clemens was never there. oopsy. If he was lying about this, what else. It clearly never happened. Not only do you have a lie exposed, which is what this whole day was about, the truth, but you have the whole beginning of Clemens involvement with steroids wiped off the books. What lie is next. How did all this happen if it didn't? Where is the powder keg? How did it ignite? The McNamee story was destroyed here at it's very beginning. You have half the world saying Clemens wasn't there. And only McNamee saying he was. Big hole in the story.


    I'm not with you on this one at all. You are jumping A to C in my opinion. without the B. No logic to it. It's not like Clemens said go find McNamee and he will hook you up. That piece is missing. There's no link between McNamee Clemens and Pettitte. There is only one link made here, and it is hearsay.

    Yesterday was all about the Truth, so who are you going to believe. One sleeze who got caught in a lie like McNamee was wednesday ( the party, the evidence, and the quanity of activity ). Or the other guy who has not been caught lying or with his hand in the cookie jar. The credibility factor here is easy. Clemens is a better witness than McNamee. In any trial, anywhere, at any time. McNamee has already been caught in a lie about the party, he lied about the evidence he had, he lied about the number of times he shot up people, and all of this since he testified. Now he decides to come clean, or is it just more lies on top of lies. It's one big sharade no matter how you slice it. What will he pull out of his pocket next? No matter what his reasoning, he lied to Mitchell. He loses credibility with any jury. If he had said all of this for the Mitchell report, I'd go with it, but suprise, he pulls stuff out when it is convenient and that means he lied, or is making it up. Not good.


    Pettitte should have been able to sand blast Clemens, and he didn't. This is what bothers me. It is an issue of quantity here. And context. Pettitte only heard him say this once? Is that enough, or would you have liked him to say he heard this more than once, on numerous occassions, and saw him do it, and heard mcnamee say it too, and saw mcnamee do it, on numerous occasions. It's that lack of quantity that is key here. For two guys supposedly on the same track, best friends, and he can only mention one moment in time, one conversation, not more? One time, one sentence, it's just not definitive. There was no witness. There is no substance here. Pettitte didn't rat Clemens out, and that is what bothers me, if anything, he threw a nerf ball at him. So I don't see it the same way as you do, I see Pettitte as giving Congress nothing. It's like he didn't even snitch. We need more supporting statements, conversations, moments, and we don't have it.
    #21
  2. PhiSlammaJamma

    PhiSlammaJamma Critical Possession

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    I prefer your post and response, as it makes more sense logically to me as I read it and there are less answers in response to it at this time. The whole wife thing is strange right now. We need to talk to her. But on one point, Canseco was in the know. While he may not know everyone in the ring of steroids, as he never played with Pettite, he was in know with regard to the teams he played on. And he played with Clemens, more than once. So I see this as a very credible point that he think Clemens was clean. Canseco has been nothing but accurate from day one, even in the face of great scrutiny. He has been proven credible in the end. He crawled through miles of crap and came out clean on the other side. That gives him the highest level of credibility in this whole thing.

    One other point that I think should be clarified is that there were what, like 70players named, and only a handful have come forward and admitted use. And I'm including Bonds in that list. So the idea that the Mitchell report and McNamee have been right about everyone but Clemens is not really true. It is more media concoction than anything. It may end up that way, but right now the percentage is actually quite low ( as you would expect it to be since this is a criminal act )
    #22
  3. Deuce Wayne

    Deuce Wayne Damnit, I cant find my driving moccasins anywhere!

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    Sly needs to bust in to congress and set these fools straight. HGH is a great thing for those that can afford it. Keep the old men around longer in baseball. Let them throw their 100mph fast balls. A league without roids is a league without viewers.
    This isn't 1929 where we care about slow athletes that are barely above average men.
    If only Clemens had a spine, he would have taken up for HGH in the first place and the rest of the league could have backed him up. But nope. Act like you're ashamed of doing something that isn't even that bad, and it'll look a lot worse in the long run.

    I support athletes on HGH. So does youth. If Clemens said that, all these congressmen would go out and get a shot and come in doing backflips the next day. Case dismissed!
    #23
  4. dg1979us

    dg1979us Starter

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    They already have talked to his wife, and she admitted to using HGH and more or less validated McNamee's story. And you keep bringing up Canseco, despite the fact that he wasnt the prominent source in the Mitchell report. It was McNamee, and Kirk Radomski, the Mets clubhouse manager, who provided most of the information.

    And again, McNamee wasnt the whole figure in this ordeal, he just happened to be Clemens and Pettite's trainer, and employed by the Yankees. But Kirk Radomski was the ultimate dealer in this whole ordeal. A lot of the names in the Mitchell report came from him, not McNamee. And Bonds wasnt listed in the Mitchell report because he there is already a federal investigation regarding him and Balco. You cant say the Mitchell report was wrong about Bonds, when they didnt even bother with Bonds.

    I cant possibly see how anyone watched or heard much of that hearing, and comes across still in doubt. Clemens contradicted himself and was caught in lies so many times I almost felt embarrassed for him. And yes, McNamee has lied about the situation. The difference is, he lied to the press. When talking to congress, his story corraborates with everybody elses, except Clemens. And that includes Clemens wife. And you are also wrong about Canseco's party, Clemens was there, which came out in the hearing Wednesday.
    #24
  5. TitanJeff

    TitanJeff Kahuna Grande Staff

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    You make a huge leap to assume this means he never used. It means McNamee is a sleeze who dealt with illegal drugs and probably has lied as much as the accused. Surprise.

    A leap? That's much less of a leap than assuming Clemens didn't use because he didn't attend a party.

    Pettitte, who has no reason to lie, said Clemens told him of his HGH use. Period. Probably the only credible witness in the thing not only gave McNamee credibility by admitting his story was true because he admitted use but heard DIRECTLY from Clemens that he did as well. Very damaging testimony, IMO.

    I've read many more say McNamee came out of the thing looking more legit than Clemens. A sleeze with a checkered past vs the best pitcher in modern MLB history. Oopsy.

    The key remains two of the three people he claimed to have shot up admitted he did.

    And do you honestly believe Clemens didn't know what HGH was when his wife was taking it?

    Or, he could have and didn't to protect his friend yet still not be accused himself of perjury at some future date.

    How would Pettitte be looked at if he did that by his peers? He's also trying to protect his legacy in the game as well. Who wants to go down in history as the guy who ratted Clemens?

    You have a friend of the accused basically making everything McNamee said legit by his testimony. That is the smoking gun here. Pettitte could have covered up for his friend and probably would have if he didn't fear perjury himself.

    Let's sit back and watch this unfold. I think we've just hit the tip of the iceberg with what is going to happen. Clemens thought he could save his legacy because it was his word against the word of a sleeze drug dealer. Problem is, this thing has snowballed and it's far from over.
    #25
  6. Alex1939

    Alex1939 Old Man Tip Jar Donor

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    What is wrong with you?
    #26
  7. Alex1939

    Alex1939 Old Man Tip Jar Donor

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    "For the human race, life is a ceaseless competition for power, for fame, even love. But when the desire for victory is reduced to winning at any cost, then we can only guarantee our defeat."
    #27
  8. Deuce Wayne

    Deuce Wayne Damnit, I cant find my driving moccasins anywhere!

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    What? Do you know anything about HGH, or do you just think it's bad because the word "steroid" and "cheating"?
    As Stallone says: HGH will be over-the-counter within 10 years. Bet on it.
    #28
  9. Kid Gloves

    Kid Gloves Guest

    HGH Facts

    For once, I agree with Gloat. Imagine that.

    This is really no different than any other hormone replacement therapy.

    I already stimuate my pituitary gland by biking alot on my Schwinn Fastback 27. The "runners high" or Endorphin induced feeling is natural and addicting, but in a good way.

    If you're taking HGH (which is not steroids and is also produced naturally by the pituitary gland) to reverse the natural progression of aging, then why not do it?
    #29
  10. Rebel Titan

    Rebel Titan Oiler Cannon Ball

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    #30
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