Rational Re-build discussion

Discussion in 'Tennessee Titans and NFL Talk' started by Riverman, Oct 6, 2009.

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  1. MJTitans

    MJTitans Chris Whitley look him up Tip Jar Donor

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    I'm going to leave the coaching change alone for now. Mostly because I just see it as relatively unlikely. I still support Fisher, but like TorontoTitanFan I'd support a new direction. I think realistically it would take several bad seasons in a row for Bud to lose Jeff. As for Cecil - this is the man who turned around our secondary when he took it over, so I'm not ready to say he won't be a good DC. On paper I like his approach and attitude. Let's see how he responds.

    I also agree that this team isn't missing that many pieces. So I'll tackle them in order of importance as I see it:

    QB It's all hinging on Vince. We have a #3 pick with a ton of upside on the roster now. All the endless debate won't answer the question we all have - do we need to find another QB or is he the answer? IMO we have to hand him the keys in the coming weeks and get that answered either way. Right now we have to assume we're going to have to find a new QB, and finding a good one in the draft (or anywhere) can be like playing the lotto. If Vince can just learn to protect the ball I think it's worth sticking with him for that reason. That's a big if, though.

    Secondary Mouton and McCourty's problems are that they are rookies. As for the fundamentals, I generally like what I've seen so I feel ok about the future. Harper didn't deserve a lot of the criticism last year, but he does now. He's a huge liability, and perhaps is really limiting Cecil in what he can call and is causing our pro-bowl safeties to overcompensate trying to help him. The current injuries could be a blessing - getting the young guys some needed experience and a chance to prove they can replace him. I think we could use a good FA acquisition or draft pick here still, and if that happens I think Cecil won't be forced to play so soft.

    O line Tackles are very solid, although Roos has had a bad couple games I think. He's entitled to a few. Harris should be a solid center, but I'm very concerned about our Guards. I wonder sometimes if they are the reason we're not seeing much of Lendale - we generally get 0 push up the middle, and they often just whiff in pass situations. I know teams are just bringing the heat to Collins now, so the criticism might be unwarranted but I don't feel comfortable with the line. We at least need to find depth. Wouldn't be shocked to see an OG-heavy offseason.

    D line / LBs Again, I feel very good about the young guys at DE, DT and LB. The "lack of pressure" we keep hearing about has more to do with our secondary than our line. No one can collapse a pocket in 2 seconds. And they've gotten close. As for a possible change to a 3-4, I just don't think there are enough guys out there who can play NT. I don't think there are even enough LBs who could really handle the responsibilities the line in a 3-4. I'm not opposed, but conceptually I like an aggressive 4-3 better.

    WR/TE Again, I feel the recent drafts will begin to pay dividends soon. Britt had a 100 yard game with a QB who is really struggling. That's impressive. I can criticize Dinger for going pass-wacky... but I can also understand that he obviously feels we're very close to breaking out with some real threats.
    #21
  2. Lava

    Lava Camp Fodder

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    The Titans did have a championship caliber defense. The quality of the QB has no effect on the validity of the 4-3 scheme and the evidence that it can work.

    I just don't think we have the personnel to switch to the 3-4 on the roster, as the proposal you gave would suggest that we take two DE's out of their natural position, and the odds of that being successful are slim as they learn a new position, responsibilities, etc. I also think you're slightly underestimating the importance of a dominant DT in the 3-4. The NT MUST command a double team or else the OL will be getting to the linebackers, creating huge running lanes and giving the QB all day to throw. Yes, the scheme can do wonders when run effectively but it hinges on having a great player on the nose.
    #22
  3. TBC_titan

    TBC_titan Camp Fodder

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    *a-hem* I didn't say championship caliber defense. I said championship caliber team. They is a difference.

    Ok, now I'm through being nice because you have apparently not read or failed miserably in comprehending my simple explanation. damn. :irked:
    First off, there is not much of a transition between a 4-3 DT and a 3-4 DE. Please tell me you are aware of this.
    Secondly, there isn't much of a transition between a 4-3 DE and a 3-4 pass-rushing OLB. You do know that KVB/Kearse (4-3 DEs....6-4, 270) are about the same size as Merriman (also 6-4, ~270). I've even seen KVB lined up farther out than normal, as a 3-4 LB before.
    You can doubt their talent and ability to switch, but I'm not. They've only been playing football their whole freakin lives. I'm sure since they've been in a 4-3 for so long that they've never, ever studied a 3-4 and are probably completely oblivous to it. :rolleyes:
    Like I said, if they don't have the talent/ability to make small changes, I wouldn't want them on my team.

    I said we'll probably need to find a NT (not a DT, DTs are for 4-3 defenses).
    I also said that Vickerson is the closest we would have to one, but he would need to put on a few more lbs. <== did you miss me posting that statement above????
    #23
  4. Lava

    Lava Camp Fodder

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    I know what you said, I'm just saying that it's not really fair to discount a good 4-3 defense because they have the disadvantage of a subpar offense preventing them from being a championship caliber team. The offense being mediocre to bad has nothing to do with the effectiveness or potential of the 4-3.


    Yeah, I know what you're saying in your first point. As for the second, I'd say the transition is fairly substantial. While KVB/Kearse may be roughly the same size as some OLBs, the responsibilities are far different half the time. As a DE, rarely would you have to worry about coverage. As an OLB, there are plenty of times where you are responsible for covering a man/zone, and there would likely be a pretty big learning curve there. I don't doubt their talent and ability, I'm just saying that it would take awhile to get used to being responsible for coverage rather than just stopping the run or pass rushing.

    I read your statement, I just don't think Vickerson is the high quality type of NT you would need to run an effective 3-4. I could be wrong, but odds are we'll never find out.
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  5. galaril

    galaril Camp Fodder

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    I agree with TorontoTitanfan's assessment of the offense but have disagreement with the secondary's assessment. I have not seen anything yet not to say it won't happen that McCourty and/or Mouton be "solid" starters in the secondary. So for me that is a hole but for the sake of argument let's just say that of the three including Fuller we can hollow out a starter and a nickelback if Fuller got moved to a starter role (doubtful I know since he is not a natural CB.) So as Toronto mentioned we have five veterans Brown, Kearse, KVB, Bullock and Thornton four of which are most likely done here after next year and Thornton the years after that. Maybe we are hoping one of the young LBs can step up like Keglar or McGrath. But that will leave a OLB spot we will need to go FA way or draft in 2011(1st rounder possibly). At the D-line we are pretty good even with KVB, Kearse, Brown and it appears Ball who's back problems may end his career prematurely. But still it leaves us to find I believe at least one stud DE starter. We could get lucky in the draft at the 3rd round or FA and land a quality DE starter this winter?

    We also really need to find a way to trade a player or a couple of picks in a later draft to get back a 2nd rounder which was pretty dumb it appears at this point to have traded away. Just the fact it was to the Pats should have told us it was a screwing since the Pats never make a trade unless it is a dumb one for the other team.pats fans are laughing their butts off right now knowing they will have a high second round pick.
    Coaching I will only note that with the secondary issues and young players being added in the next year or two Cecil will need to do double duty as the secondary coach and DC. The fact cecil is not spending as much time with the young DBs is partially to blame for some of their problems of late. ALSO, W e need to get our secondary issues ironed out this season since starting next year it will be the OLBs turn to go through big transitions and coach Cunningham left with Schwartz. Also the Defensives on the field coach and leader will be gone after this year most likely.

    My draft thoughts:
    2010
    1st R: QB
    2nd R: none but if we get one OLB/DE
    3rd: DE/OLB
    4TH:DB

    2011:
    1st:OLB
    2ND G
    3RD:DB?

    Also, if we add a FA or two we could be right back in the thick of things. This team has too many young players at this point to start a complete rebuild.
    #25
  6. eds clothing

    eds clothing Camp Fodder

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    This is going to suck but I think we start with the Defense I hate to say it ,but Griffin has looked lost this year. I'm wondering if he is mediocre or Big Al made him look like a stud. Every time I turn around he's getting burnt he lack's ball skills. We need to get back to dominating Defense.
    #26
  7. Gut

    Gut Starter

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    Um...

    Yes and no. The way MOST effective 3-4's are run (Steelers, Chargers, Jets, Ravens), the nose tackle and DE's in there 3-4 are 2 gap players and are designed to take up blockers - freeing the LB's to roam freely. But our DT's are one gap players whose main attribute is shooting the gap and getting penetration - NOT standing up to double teams. Green Bay I believe is trying this with their 3-4 this year because they don't have 2-gap DT's either. Essentially, it wouldn't change our defense much except that the change in coverage and the burden/learning curve to our 3-4 OLB's would be huge!

    Really? Size doesn't mean 2 players have the same skill set! What are KVB's current responsibilities in this defense. What does he read, what gap is his and how does his rush lane change with the limited number of blitzes we've used?

    Now explain to me the minor transitions he'd need to make as an OLB aligned in many different positions, with many different man and zone cover responsibilities, different reads he needs to make based on various alignments, secondary coverage and playcalls. And he'd need to learn the various blitz lanes he needs to rush cause they will change quite a bit.

    If you want a vanilla 3-4 where you are just playing the base formation and always rush the same OLB, then you still have a 4-3 D, don't ya?

    The most effective 3-4 D's are effective because you don't know where the pressure is coming from, the QB's not sure who is covering and requires all front 7 players to know various roles. I wouldn't want to have a vanilla 3-4 which is predictable cuz NOTHING would change except our D would have more mistakes made because the coverage would still change.

    That's silly. That's like saying if Derek Jeter can't hit 50 hr's a year, I wouldn't want him on my team. There are few players who can do it all and at a star level. Even LT...as in Lawrence Taylor wasn't very good in coverage...but he was one of the vicious pass rushers in NFL history. You wouldn't want him on your team? KVB was an excellent pass rusher but he's terrible in coverage. He doesn't have the body control, acceleration or agility to do it.


    Saying Vickerson is the closest we have when he's not close is useless. We have no one who can play that spot and command a double team and hold his ground. William Hayes might be able to play OLB in a 3-4 but I don't think he's done coverage in college and you don't know if he can. Bulluck and Thornton are too small as are our other LB's in general.

    Without a real 3-4 NT, our LB's aren't big enough to play a 3-4. Maybe Bulluck could because of his speed, athleticism and coverage ability, but he's still small and needs protecting. We don't have the 3-4 DE's to protect him.

    And if you think a 4-3 DE is no different than a 3-4 OLB, ask Aaron Campman how he likes it? He was an excellent pass rushing DE and now hasn't been able to do much.

    Gut
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  8. dlew

    dlew Jeff Fisher is my homeboy

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    Hahahaha Jason Campbell...I'd rather have VY
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  9. PBV

    PBV Camp Fodder

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    Good news is, without another collective bargaining agreement, Scaife, LenDale, and Tulloch won't be going anywhere. We won't even have to give them a franchise tag, because without a CBA they won't qualify for Free Agency in 2010. Amano maybe too, although we extended his contract once already, and IDK if that affects his eligibility in some way.

    Without a CBA, we will be allowed to Franchise 2 players instead of just one, so that helps.
    #29
  10. Eddyc85

    Eddyc85 Go Bucks!

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    Well as I said if the worst case scenario (around a 4 win season and we discover Young isn't the guy) happens I would say we do the following:

    - Try a new coach. Fisher is a great coach but so was Brian Billick, sometimes you just need to change stuff up. I like Ron Rivera of the Chargers and Greg Manusky of the 49ers.

    - Use the first round pick on a QB. I like Clausen and Pike but we'll see as the season pans out a little more.

    - Let KVB Kearse and Bulluck leave. There are some good young players we can replace them with. Rebuilding doesn't scare me like it used to having seen Atlanta and Miami. Not that every team can do that but I think we could.
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